I’ve read several of Shaw’s books, subscribed to The House of Beasts and Vines, and taken several classes. He may well be a bridge because he has a healthy respect for and liking of women. This comes out in the stories he tells. He knows the chivalric tradition that honors women. He honors elder women. I have found him to be warm and generous.
The story Parzival would be a marvelous study for young men. His Symbolic World course Quest for the Holy Grail and/or book Snowy Tower would make a good discussion group. I wish I had it for teaching my inner city kids.
As someone whose path to Orthodoxy did start with Peterson and Pageau, it's been interesting hearing other people talk about the orthobros. At a certain point I began to wonder, am I in that category? This is helpful in getting a feel for what a healthy path looks like. Obviously it's great to find ideas that are fascinating, especially when they can help put pieces of your life and experience together in ways that are healthier and more sensible than your previous paradigm. That's for sure the role that Pageau et al played for me. But if they just remain ideas, a new set of concepts to debate about, or worse, just a new quasi-edgy right-wing vibe that you feel expresses your identity, then you're doing the same modern thing that everyone else is doing -- just the Orthodox flavor of it. But it seems like genuinely entering into Orthodoxy is much more than that. Anyway, I appreciate your point here.
All of the rad-trad young guys who listened to Nick Fuentes for years at my parish have literally never heard of Pageau.
The guys who came in years ago (around the same time I did) who listened to Pageau are married, their wives do not cover their heads, ive never heard them give grief for women and girls wearing short skirts, not head covering, dying hair, cleavage hanging out, etc.
Small sample size but my experience is wildly different.
I’d place myself firmly within the orthobro sphere: it’s a pejorative sometimes, sure.
Have yet to meet anyone one individual who abides by *all* the stereotypes of “orthobro” seems like most stereotypes, it’s based on realities but is a gross misrepresentation, and potentially dehumanising and harmful if taken seriously.
And if someone did fit neatly into all of the stereotypes of orthobroness you literally cannot meet them at your parish, they notoriously have never stepped foot into an Orthodox parish.
I love this comment. Everyone we encounter is a unique icon of God— stereotypes serve absolutely no one. It’s good for us to keep that in mind and qualify all of our thoughts with it. Hence why I keep beating the drum over relationship quality.
Hard agree. But speaking as a woman, I have to also say that it’s incredibly difficult— even impossible— to relate to someone who views you as beneath them. You can be kind, but in doing so, you must also hold very strong boundaries. And in holding those boundaries, I hope that we can find a way to insist that they not act out their resentment and scorn within the community, and we must be vigilant over their relationships with the opposite sex.
Like, what would you do if you knew that a manosphere-adjacent guy was emotionally abusive to his spouse, but was still receiving communion regularly? Chances are good that almost everyone reading this knows someone in such a situation (whether they are aware of it or not).
By relationships I more so mean mentorship with men who have been orthodox for several years.
And the integrating into the community in that way. That’s step one.
I’m not sure that I see a difference between that hypothetical and a woman secretly being emotionally abusive or manipulative to her spouse and/or children.
Chances are good that we know people who are in that situation even if we don’t see behind the scenes.
What should I do in either situation? Genuinely curious!
I don’t have the answers! Just posing the question as something to think about. When I’ve been in situations where I’ve known people are being horrible to their families (and I actually have had experience mediating this sort of thing— it’s really hard and it sucks for everyone involved), I’ve tried to facilitate successful communication when possible. It’s not always possible. I’ve found the 12 Steps to be helpful— and the people unwilling to work the steps out themselves pretty fast.
Also, there’s a difference between being a jerk and being abusive— it doesn’t help to flatten everything. Keeping things particular, not universalizing, these things are harder, but better int he long run.
I have been a “follower” of Bly, Deardorff, and Shaw for some years. In recent months I’ve turned to Orthodoxy after encountering the issues you describe in your previous essay. Shaw has in turn risen in significance for me.
As another commenter notes, the story of Parzival and Shaw’s Snowy Tower is an immensely ripe portal to work w/ in light of what you’re articulating. I’m currently doing just that in an online community I run, and fixing to do just that with a group of men starting in April.
Though I’ve been reading, thinking, and writing on issues of masculinity for many years, I still feel like a beginner when it comes to actually standing in front of men and seeing if we can set aside the armor. Your words are affirming as I walk these quavering steps into Orthodoxy, deepen my relationship with Shaw’s work, and wonder about the turn he’s taken, and what may come in following that turn.
I’ll be returning to these essays. Again, thank you.
I appreciate this just as a reminder to myself—what real transformation looks like—it’s the hard every day work of repentance and taking up our cross. And I need to hear that as a mom of 7, who fits the “trad” mold. With all the variety of our life circumstances, it’s the same message of repentance.
I’ve read several of Shaw’s books, subscribed to The House of Beasts and Vines, and taken several classes. He may well be a bridge because he has a healthy respect for and liking of women. This comes out in the stories he tells. He knows the chivalric tradition that honors women. He honors elder women. I have found him to be warm and generous.
The story Parzival would be a marvelous study for young men. His Symbolic World course Quest for the Holy Grail and/or book Snowy Tower would make a good discussion group. I wish I had it for teaching my inner city kids.
As someone whose path to Orthodoxy did start with Peterson and Pageau, it's been interesting hearing other people talk about the orthobros. At a certain point I began to wonder, am I in that category? This is helpful in getting a feel for what a healthy path looks like. Obviously it's great to find ideas that are fascinating, especially when they can help put pieces of your life and experience together in ways that are healthier and more sensible than your previous paradigm. That's for sure the role that Pageau et al played for me. But if they just remain ideas, a new set of concepts to debate about, or worse, just a new quasi-edgy right-wing vibe that you feel expresses your identity, then you're doing the same modern thing that everyone else is doing -- just the Orthodox flavor of it. But it seems like genuinely entering into Orthodoxy is much more than that. Anyway, I appreciate your point here.
Exactly! It’s a perennial temptation to get stuck where we feel comfortable.
All of the rad-trad young guys who listened to Nick Fuentes for years at my parish have literally never heard of Pageau.
The guys who came in years ago (around the same time I did) who listened to Pageau are married, their wives do not cover their heads, ive never heard them give grief for women and girls wearing short skirts, not head covering, dying hair, cleavage hanging out, etc.
Small sample size but my experience is wildly different.
I’d place myself firmly within the orthobro sphere: it’s a pejorative sometimes, sure.
Have yet to meet anyone one individual who abides by *all* the stereotypes of “orthobro” seems like most stereotypes, it’s based on realities but is a gross misrepresentation, and potentially dehumanising and harmful if taken seriously.
And if someone did fit neatly into all of the stereotypes of orthobroness you literally cannot meet them at your parish, they notoriously have never stepped foot into an Orthodox parish.
I love this comment. Everyone we encounter is a unique icon of God— stereotypes serve absolutely no one. It’s good for us to keep that in mind and qualify all of our thoughts with it. Hence why I keep beating the drum over relationship quality.
And those young guys who were groypers or adjacent, they need relationships and to get integrated into the community.
It’ll take time, but we ought to give them grace.
Hard agree. But speaking as a woman, I have to also say that it’s incredibly difficult— even impossible— to relate to someone who views you as beneath them. You can be kind, but in doing so, you must also hold very strong boundaries. And in holding those boundaries, I hope that we can find a way to insist that they not act out their resentment and scorn within the community, and we must be vigilant over their relationships with the opposite sex.
Like, what would you do if you knew that a manosphere-adjacent guy was emotionally abusive to his spouse, but was still receiving communion regularly? Chances are good that almost everyone reading this knows someone in such a situation (whether they are aware of it or not).
By relationships I more so mean mentorship with men who have been orthodox for several years.
And the integrating into the community in that way. That’s step one.
I’m not sure that I see a difference between that hypothetical and a woman secretly being emotionally abusive or manipulative to her spouse and/or children.
Chances are good that we know people who are in that situation even if we don’t see behind the scenes.
What should I do in either situation? Genuinely curious!
I don’t have the answers! Just posing the question as something to think about. When I’ve been in situations where I’ve known people are being horrible to their families (and I actually have had experience mediating this sort of thing— it’s really hard and it sucks for everyone involved), I’ve tried to facilitate successful communication when possible. It’s not always possible. I’ve found the 12 Steps to be helpful— and the people unwilling to work the steps out themselves pretty fast.
Also, there’s a difference between being a jerk and being abusive— it doesn’t help to flatten everything. Keeping things particular, not universalizing, these things are harder, but better int he long run.
Thank you very much for these two essays, Laura.
I have been a “follower” of Bly, Deardorff, and Shaw for some years. In recent months I’ve turned to Orthodoxy after encountering the issues you describe in your previous essay. Shaw has in turn risen in significance for me.
As another commenter notes, the story of Parzival and Shaw’s Snowy Tower is an immensely ripe portal to work w/ in light of what you’re articulating. I’m currently doing just that in an online community I run, and fixing to do just that with a group of men starting in April.
Though I’ve been reading, thinking, and writing on issues of masculinity for many years, I still feel like a beginner when it comes to actually standing in front of men and seeing if we can set aside the armor. Your words are affirming as I walk these quavering steps into Orthodoxy, deepen my relationship with Shaw’s work, and wonder about the turn he’s taken, and what may come in following that turn.
I’ll be returning to these essays. Again, thank you.
Thanks for your own affirming words! Glory to God that He is using your own searching to help others— that’s the way it’s supposed to be!
I appreciate this just as a reminder to myself—what real transformation looks like—it’s the hard every day work of repentance and taking up our cross. And I need to hear that as a mom of 7, who fits the “trad” mold. With all the variety of our life circumstances, it’s the same message of repentance.
Yep, I totally hear you. When you’re a mom of many, people assume the strangest things about you!
I totally agree. Chest beating masculinity is not the way spiritual enlightenment.